03-17-2012, 05:04 PM
(This post was last modified: 12-18-2015, 01:52 AM by Director Michael.)
Both of you stated something similar that raises some questions.
Who grants government of those powers? Because you clearly stated that individuals do not have that right, so who grants them? Does G-d grants them? Is that in the Torah? Aren't all government power derived from the people? Otherwise it would constitute an authoritarian government, right?
G-d commands Moses to establish judges throughout Israel to judge cases and disputes presented before them. That is clearly proper, because no extra power was granted to those judges that the people didn't have, they were trustees of the people, thus all power they had were properly delegated, they were local leaders and their authority was recognized by local groups, they didn't have a central government. I see no contradiction here.
But in 1 Samuel 8 the people starts to ask for a king to rule over them, and amazingly enough, G-d warns them about taxation: "He will take the tenth of your flocks; and ye shall be his servants." I'm not an expert in biblical interpretation, that is why I need your help. But when the people asks for a government to rule over them, a government that would possess more powers than the ones given by G-d to the people, isn't that what G-d stated by: "they have not rejected thee (Samuel and the judges), but they have rejected Me, that I should not be king over them." ?
Mattityahu said:
I didn't say there should be no government. I'm just asking if there is a limit for taxation, or if taxation itself is theft in the eyes of the Torah. There are many ways to fund the government without taxes. But it would be a government that would look more like the one the Israelites experienced with judges, not a big one.
Does that includes in the scenario we live today? By statute with shall use federal reserve notes (which are bills of credit for not having something of value to be backed by) as legal tender, but the Constitution still says "No State shall emit bills of credit and make anything but gold and silver coin a tender in payment of debts." So when I use the federal reserve note to pay taxes for the government to pay their debts, does that make them "robbers in all respects"? By force they don't allow me to use the actual legal tender which is gold and silver.
I don't want to deviate too much from the topic. Thank you very much for the answers.
Quote:"ruling governments are rightfully granted certain powers and privileges that are not granted to individuals"
Quote:"The power to use force to achieve a goal through coercion is usually denied people but granted to government"
Who grants government of those powers? Because you clearly stated that individuals do not have that right, so who grants them? Does G-d grants them? Is that in the Torah? Aren't all government power derived from the people? Otherwise it would constitute an authoritarian government, right?
G-d commands Moses to establish judges throughout Israel to judge cases and disputes presented before them. That is clearly proper, because no extra power was granted to those judges that the people didn't have, they were trustees of the people, thus all power they had were properly delegated, they were local leaders and their authority was recognized by local groups, they didn't have a central government. I see no contradiction here.
But in 1 Samuel 8 the people starts to ask for a king to rule over them, and amazingly enough, G-d warns them about taxation: "He will take the tenth of your flocks; and ye shall be his servants." I'm not an expert in biblical interpretation, that is why I need your help. But when the people asks for a government to rule over them, a government that would possess more powers than the ones given by G-d to the people, isn't that what G-d stated by: "they have not rejected thee (Samuel and the judges), but they have rejected Me, that I should not be king over them." ?
Mattityahu said:
Quote:"If there were no government, people would tear each other apart, and not just in a figurative sense, but literally."
I didn't say there should be no government. I'm just asking if there is a limit for taxation, or if taxation itself is theft in the eyes of the Torah. There are many ways to fund the government without taxes. But it would be a government that would look more like the one the Israelites experienced with judges, not a big one.
Quote:If, however, the coins he issues are not the tender of the land, he is considered to be a robber who takes by the force of arms. He and his servants are like a band of armed thieves, whose laws are not binding. Such a king and his servants are considered to be robbers in all respects.
Does that includes in the scenario we live today? By statute with shall use federal reserve notes (which are bills of credit for not having something of value to be backed by) as legal tender, but the Constitution still says "No State shall emit bills of credit and make anything but gold and silver coin a tender in payment of debts." So when I use the federal reserve note to pay taxes for the government to pay their debts, does that make them "robbers in all respects"? By force they don't allow me to use the actual legal tender which is gold and silver.
I don't want to deviate too much from the topic. Thank you very much for the answers.