05-03-2013, 11:47 PM
(This post was last modified: 05-07-2013, 10:48 PM by Rabbi Moshe Weiner.)
Hi Reb,
With regards to your initial references to Pirkei Avot 6:2 and Mishna 3:5 they are nice words. But I don't know what is meant by "free". Is it still right and just for a king or government to take a person's money and personal information (e.g., the census forms) in extortionate ways? Namely, can any government say to me "give me your personal information or I will fine you" or "did you work for that money? good, then I'm taking some of it whether you want it or not" or "your child doesn't go to our schools? great! we can fine you, put you in prison, or take away your children" etc.? So I have no idea what this concept of "free" is. It is still the case that my earnings don't belong to me, my children don't belong to me, my personal information doesn't belong to me [if the government can take them away, as long as they are consistent about it, then they aren't mine, I'm just the source of revenue for them, just the serf-producer and baby-sitter for them, just a statistic for them]. Does the law codified in the Sheva Mitzvos say that it's all just and right according to the description of the Dinim law as long as they are consistent about it? So again, even according to that book, regardless of whether I was an observant gentile or not, I'm still a slave/serf to the government I'm under. So maybe you could help me understand what this "free" is. Plus, I still am not clear on how a government taking things without consent isn't theft. Is it not theft simply because they are the ruling power?
The point that I'm making is that, according to Torah standards, as long as a government is consistent about the way they take things from their population, is it fine? Taxation without consent, seizing of property and children, seizing of human beings for victimless "crimes", is all of that fine, right, and just as long as the ruling power is consistent about it? That's how I interpret what I read of the quote of the Sheva Mitvos that you gave. I'm sure that even according to the standard given by the Sheva Mitsvos, there may be some, a few, governments that are doing some wrong things, according to that standard. But I question that standard and the leeway it gives to tyranny (tyranny and despotically are not the same thing).
You mentioned limitations to the government, i.e., despotically and benefit to king or country. Who judges either of these? What is the criteria for despoticism according to the Torah Law for Gentiles? What is the criteria for "benefit"? In the "Sheva Mitzvot HaShem", Vol. 3 (Part VIII, Dinim), 1:3 as you quoted, the system should prevent people from sinning. For the most part, this doesn't resemble western governments or policing systems. Sinning? Does this refer to the seven commandments? Of course, it should be obvious that the government doesn't prevent the breaking of many of the commandments apart from some sections of theft, some sections of murder, and some sections of forbidden partners. But you can understand just because a person keeps some of the law, it doesn't hold them back from breaking others laws, especially if the government is advertising the breaking of the other parts.
I can't comment much about the messianic age - although, may it come quickly - as that's not the age I have to deal with right now. I've got to deal with this age which you once gave me some pertinent words on.
I believe you can already see my angst against and disgust at governments worldwide, or at the very least, the government I'm under, when I attempt to view them through the lens of the Torah Laws for Gentiles.
With regards to your initial references to Pirkei Avot 6:2 and Mishna 3:5 they are nice words. But I don't know what is meant by "free". Is it still right and just for a king or government to take a person's money and personal information (e.g., the census forms) in extortionate ways? Namely, can any government say to me "give me your personal information or I will fine you" or "did you work for that money? good, then I'm taking some of it whether you want it or not" or "your child doesn't go to our schools? great! we can fine you, put you in prison, or take away your children" etc.? So I have no idea what this concept of "free" is. It is still the case that my earnings don't belong to me, my children don't belong to me, my personal information doesn't belong to me [if the government can take them away, as long as they are consistent about it, then they aren't mine, I'm just the source of revenue for them, just the serf-producer and baby-sitter for them, just a statistic for them]. Does the law codified in the Sheva Mitzvos say that it's all just and right according to the description of the Dinim law as long as they are consistent about it? So again, even according to that book, regardless of whether I was an observant gentile or not, I'm still a slave/serf to the government I'm under. So maybe you could help me understand what this "free" is. Plus, I still am not clear on how a government taking things without consent isn't theft. Is it not theft simply because they are the ruling power?
The point that I'm making is that, according to Torah standards, as long as a government is consistent about the way they take things from their population, is it fine? Taxation without consent, seizing of property and children, seizing of human beings for victimless "crimes", is all of that fine, right, and just as long as the ruling power is consistent about it? That's how I interpret what I read of the quote of the Sheva Mitvos that you gave. I'm sure that even according to the standard given by the Sheva Mitsvos, there may be some, a few, governments that are doing some wrong things, according to that standard. But I question that standard and the leeway it gives to tyranny (tyranny and despotically are not the same thing).
You mentioned limitations to the government, i.e., despotically and benefit to king or country. Who judges either of these? What is the criteria for despoticism according to the Torah Law for Gentiles? What is the criteria for "benefit"? In the "Sheva Mitzvot HaShem", Vol. 3 (Part VIII, Dinim), 1:3 as you quoted, the system should prevent people from sinning. For the most part, this doesn't resemble western governments or policing systems. Sinning? Does this refer to the seven commandments? Of course, it should be obvious that the government doesn't prevent the breaking of many of the commandments apart from some sections of theft, some sections of murder, and some sections of forbidden partners. But you can understand just because a person keeps some of the law, it doesn't hold them back from breaking others laws, especially if the government is advertising the breaking of the other parts.
I can't comment much about the messianic age - although, may it come quickly - as that's not the age I have to deal with right now. I've got to deal with this age which you once gave me some pertinent words on.
I believe you can already see my angst against and disgust at governments worldwide, or at the very least, the government I'm under, when I attempt to view them through the lens of the Torah Laws for Gentiles.