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Contraceptives and Righteous Gentiles
#11
Director Michael Wrote:Of course this should not be used as an excuse for condoning "safe" gay sex, which is strictly forbidden regardless of whether any "protection" is used.
Yes, the Bible forbids gay sex.

I did not have that in mind. As most people (globally) that get HIV and AIDS are heterosexuals (mainly in Africa and probably Asia), if single parents used condoms more often then more children would grew up with a parent.

I think the best would be if all humans only had sex in faithful long term relations (marriages), but if they do not, it is good to know that condoms are not forbidden.

Thanks for your answer!

/Niklas
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#12
rabbiyitz Wrote:A Tubal Ligation is not considered mutilation for a Bas Noach and certainly it is permissible in a case when it is medically indicated, and [when it] would be injurious to the woman's health to continue to conceive.

Is it permissible in cases where it wouldn't be injurious to the woman's health? We have six kids and are not sure whether or not we should have any more (due to financial reasons). If we decided to not have anymore, would a tubal ligation be permitted?

Peace,
Miguel
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#13
Yes, for a Gentile woman this would be permitted.
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#14
I don't understand. If you can place your seed into a Condom, then why is it a sin for Gentiles to spill their seed outside of intercourse? What makes it different?
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#15
The Torah's term for the sin in question is "zera l'vetalah", literally translated as "emitting semen wastefully", which in the Torah Law for Gentiles means emitting semen for no allowable constructive purpose. In G-d's eyes, the act of marital intercourse (as defined in the Torah) between a husband and wife serves a constructive purpose in and of itself, because it strengthens their marital bonding, regardless of whether or not the woman can conceive from the intercourse. (Allowing for the possibility of conception makes their intercourse an even more constructive act.) So when a Gentile couple uses a condom during allowed marital relations, the emission of semen is allowed even though it is blocked, since the arousal is necessary in order for the constructive act to take place. Whereas if licentious emission of semen is committed not during allowed marital intercourse, with or without a condom in place, it is not a constructive act serving a purpose for which it was created, and it is sinful in G-d's eyes.

(Note that use of a semen-blocking condom is forbidden for Jews.)
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#16
Ok! So for a gentile, it's not as much what happens to the seed in the end, but how it comes out, right?
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#17
Yes, meaning to say, what matters most is what the man and woman are doing when it comes out.
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#18
If Er and Onan in Genesis 38 were punished for comitting coitus interruptus, which is a very ineffective way of preventing conception, then why would the use of condoms be allowed, which is almost 100% effective in preventing it? If condoms were available at that time, would have they still been punished? I also remember reading in The Divine Code that the use of condoms on a temporary basis for gentiles is permitted, but to use them on a permanent basis to prevent conception would not be allowed. Would this mean that a gentile man who does not want to ever have children should never get married and remain celebate forever unless it's a woman who is incapable of conceiving? Also why is the use of condoms considerd spilling seed only for Jewish men?
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#19
(09-03-2012, 11:43 AM)Daniel2 Wrote: If Er and Onan in Genesis 38 were punished for committing coitus interruptus, which is a very ineffective way of preventing conception, then why would the use of condoms be allowed, which is almost 100% effective in preventing it?

1. There are TWO separate issues involved. (a) The positive obligation to "be fruitful and multiply", and (b) the sin of emitting male seed in vain.
2. Before Mount Sinai, all mankind was obligated to fulfill the Divine directive to "be fruitful and multiply". At Mount Sinai, that directive was given as an explicit positive commandment for Jewish men, and Gentiles were no longer obligated to "be fruitful and multiply" on an individual basis, although it remains a constructive act and a Divine objective for mankind.
3. Since the sin of emitting male seed in vain is not stated explicitly in the 5 Books of Moses, men who commit this sin and do not repent from it incur only punishment from G-d (in addition to the physical and emotion harm it causes), but there is no requirement for punishment from a physical court as a matter of Torah Law.
4. Er and Onan were punished in a uniquely severe way, by immediate and open Divine miracles, because they transgressed on a number of levels:
a) They refused to fulfill their pre-Sinai obligation to "be fruitful and multiply"
b) They committed the sin of emitting male seed in vain
c) They refused to abide by the established custom of Jacob's family to observe the post-Sinai Jewish commandments (namely the Jewish commandment to "be fruitful and mulitply")
d) The family of Jacob had the prophetic tradition that the Messiah would be born from the male lineage of Judah their father, so by their actions they were impeding the progression toward the Messiah's eventual birth, which is a foundational purpose for the existence of the entire creation. So they were nullifying a specific purpose of creation for which they were personally responsible, as sons of Judah.
e) Due to the enormity of all these combined sins, G-d punished Er and Onan immediately and severely. So it was not just a matter that they prevented conception in the context of average people at that time.

(09-03-2012, 11:43 AM)Daniel2 Wrote: If condoms were available at that time, would have they still been punished?

If Er and Onan had used condoms during marital intercourse instead of committing coitus interruptus, I think it's impossible to say if or how they would have been punished (pre-Sinai), because that is not considered wasteful emission of male seed for Gentiles, although it is for Jews.

(09-03-2012, 11:43 AM)Daniel2 Wrote: I also remember reading in "The Divine Code" that the use of condoms on a temporary basis for gentiles is permitted, but to use them on a permanent basis to prevent conception would not be allowed. Would this mean that a gentile man who does not want to ever have children should never get married and remain celebate forever unless it's a woman who is incapable of conceiving?

No. The obligation for a man to father children, and the obligation for a man to have a wife (i.e., to lead a married life together, with or without children), each stand on their own in terms of the overall general benefits for the individual and/or for society. Of course, it is more meritorious when a married man fathers children with his wife.

(09-03-2012, 11:43 AM)Daniel2 Wrote: Also why is the use of condoms considered spilling seed only for Jewish men?

Because for Jews it is an absolute requirement in G-d's Law that the man's seed must have internal contact with the woman's flesh.
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#20
Shalom to all from Brazil! This is my first participation in the forum. I do not speak English, I'm using a base that I have and Google Translator, so I apologize for any misunderstanding.
In Genesis 9: 7 it is said that: "And you, be fruitful and multiply; swarm upon the earth and multiply thereon."
This ordinance was given directly to Noah immediately after the prohibition of killing.
There is the following comment in my footer: Rashi, quoting the Midrash connects the verses 6 and 7, concluding that "everyone who is not dedicated to building a family is equivalent to the man who causes bloodshed".
Apart from that, before this, soon after the creation of man in Genesis 1:28, just as it was required a "fruitful and multiply" ...
I, in my limitations, I understand that with the giving of the Torah at Sinai, the separation of the Jewish people was dramatically impactful to all other nations, because according to the comments here on this forum, the "fruit" became no longer required.
Some Rabbis teach that this commandment is still valid for Bnei Noach and further prohibit any method of contraception, and that any sexual relationship between husband and wife must be the willingness to bear children always in mind.
Even this worries me because I have no intention of having children by several problems, and I'm still afraid to marry, even though claimant alleged (now widow) already has children from another marriage.
Thank you for listening!
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