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RE: The need for a Rabbi and other questions - ahivarn - 05-27-2012

(05-25-2012, 08:55 PM)Michelle Wrote: Hello David! thankyou for providing us with this historical thread and all the valuable information it contains for others, wherever placed, to follow.

I felt like you once... that I was all alone... I too live in the UK and as our Director Michael here can vouch, I too have had many questions in my search for truth and understanding, my place in all of ?, what and where I should be... and more importantly do... and Praise G-d... somehow I receive my answers as and when I'm ready... through the Grace of G-d... I ask everything in prayer... that's how I beleive I was introduced to AskNoah... for I didn't start here... I didn't know what a Noahide was 5 years ago sitting here in the UK... I felt closed to conversations on what felt to me like Jewish only viewed (which is how I read them but maybe that was my error... 'i thought' or felt because I wasn't one I couldn't speak and wouldn't be listened to! - HOW WRONG I WAS... Father forgive me).

Often also I meditate and sometimes I think I'm NEVEr going to get 'it' but it comes... when I have been made ready... when I let go and let G-d give so that I may receive... day by day... one day at a time... I will never be a teacher or someone to follow and my path was individual and unique to me because of the life choices I choose to make these last 40+ years. HOWEVER even now I am amazed at how our paths unite and if you ever feel guided and/or want to ask a question I have seen and received the feedback I've needed to see and feel for my own understanding through many People in many places and through many webpages and/or books and those that answer or give me feedback from email and gaining lots of Friends with different views has helped me ... but it all started when I saw on a website a place where I was invited to ask... it was on Aish and I thank G-d that they and some choice People He placed around me where I could reach them touched me back... so that I too today, can feel able to answer a question not as an 'unqualified' person... but as who I know I was brought here to be; a Mother. and what was to me my souce/connection to G-dliness... my online Friend... Rabbie Zelig and His daily lift and subsequently His email and a book which taught me and gave me the confidence to find that I was never alone... because I had always someone to ask and someone to speak to and His Name... was G-d and prayer is my daily companion.

love all X


(01-10-2012, 01:46 AM)amenyahu Wrote: Greetings all and Shalom,

I am a UK Noahide, apparently on his own in the sense of "religious" worldview, doing my best to keep the seven laws of Noah as G-d commanded them to Moses. There seems to be no one around me pursuing keeping the Noahide laws. I'm a bit of an oddity in this respect, coming up to 9 years ago (wow, time flies)...

...Thanks for any help you can give. I know these are big questions and you have limited time. I guess you know that I have to ask!

Blessing to everyone.
David

Well said Michelle!
I was also in similar situations and after all these years; I am now clear why I am doing or believing. It is because I believe in G-d as explained by Torah and I believe that believing G-d is in itself a pretty intense experience; something which is highly personal, satisfying and supportive. I am a young adult, just started my first job. G-d is the greatest support. He loves you and believes in you and is just and open! I don't know anyone here who even knows Torah. But I meditate and believe! Just live life normally and try to incorporate Noahide principles in your life. I believe the key to happiness and getting the love of G-d is to start with the fundamentals. You would be amazed how you start changing by following seemingly simple principles and life would blossom. I am even thinking to be a Noahide preacher in future. Maybe a group of Noahide preachers , if allowed. So, the crux is that your life will become more beautiful and more successful slowly and steadily when you follow G-d's commandments!

kindest regards
Amit


Liability, forbidden, and permissible - amenyahu - 07-26-2012

Hi Rabbis,

Reading the Divine Code, I see that some things bring liability in a court and some things are stated as "forbidden." Take for instance, to bow down to an idol brings liability, but to read omens is forbidden.

But what does forbidden mean? Does forbidden mean it won't affect a person's place in the World to Come but it shouldn't be done? Does forbidden mean that it breaks one of the 7 commands? When something is "permissible," does that mean that it may be wrong but it's allowed under the 7 commandments? Would permissible mean that it's something that God "doesn't like" (really rough terms, sorry) but is ok for Gentiles? Or does it mean just everything that is not prohibited?

So for example, reading omens is forbidden. But it doesn't bring the death penalty. So does that make it permissible but it puts a Noahide on a "low" level? In other words, if breaking one of the 7 commandments means the death penalty, what does that mean for "related" acts that don't bring the death penalty?

Going through the daily readings of the Divine Code, I notice a place that says that it is important for a Noahide to learn what is prohibited and what is permissible. I'm getting a bit confused about what these terms mean. It's like there are three categories not just two, not simply prohibited and permissible, but rather capital crimes, forbidden acts that are not capital crimes, and "permissible." But I'm not sure if permissible includes forbidden acts that are not capital crimes.

I'm asking because I want to start actually memorizing the laws. It's easy to know the 7 main commands, but I want to memorize the general rules under each but in the correct way and level so I don't think that something is a capital crime when it is not, and I don't mistake a permissible act for a capital crime.

Thanks


RE: Liability, forbidden, and permissible - Director Michael - 07-27-2012

(07-26-2012, 08:28 PM)amenyahu Wrote: Reading the Divine Code, I see that some things bring liability in a court and some things are stated as "forbidden." Take for instance, to bow down to an idol brings liability, but to read omens is forbidden.
But what does forbidden mean?
Does forbidden mean it won't affect a person's place in the World to Come but it shouldn't be done?
Does forbidden mean that it breaks one of the 7 commands?

If something is identified there as forbidden for a Gentile, but it does not bring liability to capital punishment within the Noahide Code, that means it is a sin, but it doesn't violate the strict letter of any of the specific 7 Noahide Commandments. Thus:
- a Noahide court/government could make a decree that it will be forbidden within their civil laws, subject to a lighter penalty
- the person who has committed the forbidden act must stop it altogether, and repent to G-d for the sin he committed
- if the person is a sincerely faithful Noahide who observes *at least* the letter of 7 Noahide Commandments as given by G-d through Moses at Mt. Sinai, he can merit a place in the World to Come as Pious Noahide, even if he transgressed in the lighter "forbidden" sins. But if he does not repent from those sins, they will need to be purged from his soul through difficulties in this world, or after his death (for example, for a period of time in the spiritual fire of Gehinnom).

(07-26-2012, 08:28 PM)amenyahu Wrote: When something is "permissible," does that mean that it may be wrong but it's allowed under the 7 commandments? Would permissible mean that it's something that God "doesn't like" (really rough terms, sorry) but is OK for Gentiles? Or does it mean just everything that is not prohibited?

"Permissible" means that within the precepts of the Torah Law itself, it is not forbidden by the word of the law - neither within the strict law of the specific 7 Noahide Commandments nor by any additional Rabbinical ramifications of those laws. Therefore it is not a sin for a person to do that thing.

However, there is a grey area in which a person might do something permitted, but for evil intentions or rebelliousness. For example, in some cultures, it is very normal and accepted to eat insects, and for a Noahide that is permitted. However, if a person in a Western society, in which that is viewed as disgusting, would walk into a high-class tuxedo dinner event and start eating a bunch of insects that he brought in with him, just for the sake of shocking and sickening the other dinner guests, that would be a sinful behavior.

Also, some things permitted within Torah Law may be outlawed on some logical basis by a society, acting within its permitted powers according to the Noahide commandment for Laws and Courts. For example, although the Torah permits polygamy for Gentiles, that only applies when it is accepted by the society and its laws. If the society makes civil laws against polygamy, then it becomes "forbidden" (not permitted) as an offshoot of the Noahide commandment for Laws and Courts.

(07-26-2012, 08:28 PM)amenyahu Wrote: So for example, reading omens is forbidden. But it doesn't bring the death penalty. So does that make it permissible but it puts a Noahide on a "low" level?

No. It is not permissible, and it is sinful.

(07-26-2012, 08:28 PM)amenyahu Wrote: Going through the daily readings of the Divine Code, I notice a place that says that it is important for a Noahide to learn what is prohibited and what is permissible. I'm getting a bit confused about what these terms mean. It's like there are three categories not just two, not simply prohibited and permissible, but rather capital crimes, forbidden acts that are not capital crimes, and "permissible." But I'm not sure if permissible includes forbidden acts that are not capital crimes.

No, "permissible" does not include forbidden acts that are not capital sins.

(07-26-2012, 08:28 PM)amenyahu Wrote: I'm asking because I want to start actually memorizing the laws. It's easy to know the 7 main commands, but I want to memorize the general rules under each but in the correct way and level so I don't think that something is a capital crime when it is not, and I don't mistake a permissible act for a capital crime.

That's a very useful exercise. I invite you to send me your list to look over.


Ger Toshav and Rambam - amenyahu - 01-11-2013

Hi AskNoah,

In Mishneh Torah, Laws of Kings, chapter 8, halacha 10, it says:

"... A person who formally accepts these commands is called a resident alien (ger toshav). This applies in any place."

When it says "this applies in any place," does that mean a gentile, a noahide, could be a ger toshav even if he isn't in the land of Israel? And is this halakhah? I guess because I am more familiar with the text of the Hebrew Bible, the Torah, I understand "ger" as referring to someone residing in Israel. But then again, I guess if there can be full converts, called ger tzedek, in other countries, would that mean a ger toshav could be in other countries as well, right? Could you please clarify for me?

I'm on a facebook which is trying to share and promote information on the noahide laws. we get visits from muslims and xtians asking questions about the Jewish Bible. Although we've adopted a policy regarding many questions to direct them to rabbis, there are some questions I believe we can answer on the peshat, basic level. A Jewess who is part of the group has condemned us for the questions we do answer saying that noahides shouldn't teach others Jewish Scripture. I get the feeling from her that she will not listen to any of the noahides there so I'm hoping you can clear up a few things.

- are noahides allowed to teach other gentiles and noahides anything about the noahide law?

- are noahides allowed to teach other gentiles and noahides anything about the Jewish Bible?

In other words, what exactly are noahides allowed to teach other noahides? And if some things are ok, is there a Jewish source I can direct the Jewess to, as, based on previous experience of her, I strongly doubt that she will give much weight to the words or reasonings of any gentile/noahide. It's not that she hates gentiles. It's difficult to go into here. But could you help please?


RE: Ger Toshav and Rambam - Director Michael - 01-13-2013

(01-11-2013, 03:39 AM)amenyahu Wrote: In Mishneh Torah, Laws of Kings, chapter 8, halacha 10, it says:
"... A person who formally accepts these commands is called a resident alien (ger toshav). This applies in any place."
When it says "this applies in any place," does that mean a gentile, a noahide, could be a ger toshav even if he isn't in the land of Israel? And is this halakhah?

It is halakhah (Torah Law) that during a period of time when all of the 12 Tribes of Israel are settled in their Biblical territories in the Holy Land, under the authority of a Jewish government,
(a) a righteous Gentile may become a legal resident (Ger Toshav) of the Jewish nation through the formal declaration that he accepts upon himself the Noahide Commandments, and
(b) during that time period, a righteous Gentile can make that declaration outside of Land of Israel, to be granted Ger Toshav status, and then if he moves to Israel he will be accepted as a legal resident.

(01-11-2013, 03:39 AM)amenyahu Wrote: I'm on a facebook which is trying to share and promote information on the noahide laws. we get visits from muslims and xtians asking questions about the Jewish Bible. Although we've adopted a policy regarding many questions to direct them to rabbis, there are some questions I believe we can answer on the peshat, basic level. A Jewess who is part of the group has condemned us for the questions we do answer saying that noahides shouldn't teach others Jewish Scripture. I get the feeling from her that she will not listen to any of the noahides there so I'm hoping you can clear up a few things.
- are noahides allowed to teach other gentiles and noahides anything about the noahide law?

Yes, of course, bearing in mind that "Noahide law" means the Torah Laws for Noahides.
The original source for this knowledge has to be faithful and observant Torah scholars who are expert in this area of Torah. That knowledge has to be disseminated to the Gentiles, to the point that it becomes common knowledge, so people will know what they are and are not permitted to do, in accordance with G-d's commandments.
Once a Gentile has learned something about observance of the Noahide Commandments, he is allowed and encouraged to teach it to others (but he's not required to put himself at risk to do so). This falls within the general obligation of the Noahide Commandment to establish a righteous judicial system, the purpose of which is to have a righteous society that observes these commandments.
- Quoting from "The Divine Code", Part I, topic 8:7: "Likewise, it is an obligation for every person to endeavor to influence those around him to observe those things that they are obligated in, in a way of friendliness and sociability. One who is able to distance those around him from doing wrong, has an obligation to do so, in order to support the foundation of a moral society that will be as G-d wishes, as the prophet says (Isaiah 45:18), 'The world was not created to be void, but properly settled.'"
- From ibid., ch. 4, footnote 99: "This is also apparent from what Rambam writes [about Noahide judges, in Laws of Kings 9:14] ... Therefore, it is logical that just as there is an obligation for the [Noahide] judges to enforce the laws and warn people about them, the same applies for all those [Gentiles] who have the opportunity to prevent another from transgressing, and this is also included in the general precept..." The best way for Gentiles to accomplish this prevention is through educating their fellow Gentiles about what is and is not permitted in G-d's eyes.
- Of great importance is ibid., topic 4:9: "[Gentile] Parents are obligated to provide education to their children, and specifically in the fulfillment of the Noahide Code. This education for the children is an obligation within the commandment of Dinim [Judgments], to strengthen the observance of the Noahide precepts in the world." The Editor's note there advises, "See for example, 'The Principles of Education and Guidance.' by Rabbi Yosef Yitzchak Schneersohn, pub. Kehot." To read this on-line:

https://chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/115225/jewish/The-Principles-of-Education-and-Guidance.htm

(01-11-2013, 03:39 AM)amenyahu Wrote: - are noahides allowed to teach other gentiles and noahides anything about the Jewish Bible?

Yes. Whatever an observant Noahide is permitted to learn about the Hebrew Bible, which is the correct translation and the traditional (Rabbinical) explanations at the straightforward level, he is permitted to pass along that knowledge to another observant Noahide.

However, as long as a Gentile *persists* in serving idols or following other paths of heresy (such as atheism or paganism), he is forbidden from "involving himself" in Torah study, and if he does so, it is counted as an additional grievous sin in G-d's eyes.

(01-11-2013, 03:39 AM)amenyahu Wrote: In other words, what exactly are noahides allowed to teach other noahides? And if some things are ok, is there a Jewish source I can direct the Jewess to?

I recommend that you direct her to "The Divine Code", by Rabbi Moshe Weiner: https://asknoah.org/books/the-divine-code


RE: The need for a Rabbi and other questions - amenyahu - 01-13-2013

Thank you for this information. I'll read and re-read it and then share it with the group. Thanks for the kindness in replying.

In your response to my question about "what can a noahide teach about the Jewish Bible", you said that those who persist in idolatry or heresy should not be involved in Torah study. Since you were responding in relation to what can be taught from the Jewish Bible, I conclude that this is included in "Torah study". So idolators and heretics shouldn't study the Jewish Bible. That I can understand. Is it also true that they shouldn't read it either?
And one more question about your answer: does "other paths of heresy" include all other religions?


RE: The need for a Rabbi and other questions - Director Michael - 01-15-2013

NOTE: The answers below are updates and corrections to the answers that were originally posted.

(01-13-2013, 08:05 PM)amenyahu Wrote: In your response to my question about what can a noahide teach about the Jewish Bible, you said that those who persist in idolatry or heresy should not be involved in Torah study.
Since you were responding in relation to what can be taught from the Jewish Bible, I conclude that this is included in "Torah study".

What I meant was to draw a distinction. Study of the Jewish Bible is included as an area of "Torah study", and as such it is possible to be studied on different levels:
a) reading/learning the verses of the text (with correct translation),
b) learning the straightforward Oral-Torah explanations of the text or,
c) learning the text with in-depth, inner explanations from the Oral-Torah (e.g., homiletical or kabbalistic insights).

For observant Noahides, a) and b) may be applied to the entire Hebrew Bible, and c) may be applied to verses that discuss the 7 Noahide Commandments (and, Rabbi Weiner adds in "The Divine Code" (Part I, ch.r 5), possibly the entire first 11 chapters of the Book of Genesis, since they relate to humanity in general).

All Gentiles are obligated to learn the Seven Noahide Commandments, and how to observe them. Some of this information can be learned from certain verses of the Hebrew Bible, and certainly from their straightforward explanations. But if a Gentile proceeds to learn this material, while at the same time persisting in refusing to accept upon himself to observe these basic commandments that are incumbent upon him, G-d will punish him both for his unrepentant transgressions of the commandments (to the extent that he would have been punished anyway), and for making the effort to learn about them but then refusing to observe them (and not repenting for that either).

For Gentiles who are not observant Noahides, there is limited permission to teach them the parts of the Hebrew Bible that relate only to the Divine service of Jews (meaning, to teach them the Oral Torah's correct interpretation of those verses). First of all, for this permission to be granted, the Gentile must accept the general authenticity of the Hebrew Bible - that it is G-d's Word, revealed through His true prophets, and of course this requires belief in G-d, the Creator of the heavens and the earth, Who is the G-d of Israel. Typically, such individuals have been previously misled about the meaning and ongoing validity of these verses. If the Gentile is persisting in idolatrous beliefs, one should not directly teach him the correct explanations straight from the simple-level Oral Torah sources. Rather, one should avoid citing those Oral Torah sources, and as much as possible, just explain the concepts in one’s own words, with logical proofs.

Note: some Rabbinic authorities have argued that the Talmud’s prohibition against Gentile Torah study (in those areas that extend beyond the Noahide Code) applies only to the Oral Law, and not to the Hebrew Bible scriptures. One of the arguments for this leniency is based on G-d's instructions to the Jewish people (Deut. 27:4-8), that, "It shall be when you cross the Jordan, you shall erect these [great] stones ... on Mount Ebal, and you shall coat them with plaster .... You shall inscribe on the stones all the words of this Torah, well clarified." The Talmud explains that "well clarified" meant translated into the 70 Gentile languages that existed at that time. Thus, a Gentile who passed by or specifically traveled to Mount Ebal could read and copy the entire Five Books of Moses, properly translated, in a language that he understood.

On the other hand, there are other Rabbinical authorities who attribute the purpose of the translations on the plastered rocks to other reasons, that relate only to the Jewish people, so they rule that the prohibition against Gentile Torah study (in those areas that extend beyond the Noahide Code) also applies to the Hebrew Bible scriptures.

Furthermore, even according to the opinion that the translations on the plastered rocks, implied permission for Gentiles to study the entire Hebrew Bible, that may have applied only in the historical context of that time (until the destruction of the First Temple), because even the idolaters who lived in those times
a) believed in the G-d of Israel, in that they admitted that He was "the G-d of gods," and
b) knew that the 5 Books of Moses were true, because they knew about the authenticity of the great miracles described there, such as the Jew's miraculous exodus from Egypt and G-d's subsequent splitting of the sea, G-d's speaking at Mount Sinai, the manna that fell from Heaven for the Jews during their 40 years in the wilderness, and the Jew's miraculous defeat of the powerful Amorite nations that were led by kings Sichon and Og (not to mention G-d's destruction of the walls of Jericho, and that He made the sun stand still in the sky for Joshua during the battle at Givon), and
c) knew about and were able to witness open miracles from G-d, occurring on a regular daily basis in the Tabernacle and then in the First Temple.

(01-13-2013, 08:05 PM)amenyahu Wrote: So idolaters and heretics shouldn't study the Jewish Bible. That I can understand. Is it also true that they shouldn't read it either?

By Divine Providence, (slightly variant) versions of the Hebrew Bible have become almost universally available to be read by all Gentiles, and therefore Jews and Noahides are under no obligation to tell them that they shouldn't read it, nor to make any effort to stop them from reading it. On the other hand, Jews and Noahides are responsible to know what and how and to whom it is permitted to teach.

(01-13-2013, 08:05 PM)amenyahu Wrote: And one more question about your answer: does "other paths of heresy" include all other religions?

That answer is applied on an individual basis, depending on what the person himself actually believes. A person may identify himself with a particular religious group, but without accepting all of the particulars of that religion's official doctrine. Particular doctrines of particular religions or their branches and offshoots may be judged according the categories of heretical false beliefs that are listed in "The Divine Code", Part I, ch. 1.


RE: The need for a Rabbi and other questions - amenyahu - 01-21-2013

Hi Reb Schulman,

Thanks for your detailed advice, which I read a number of times. Is it ok with you if I share this advice with other observant Noahides? Is it ok to post it on the facebook group that tries to promote the 7 laws, post it for all that are in the group to see?

Thank you, my mentor.
David


RE: The need for a Rabbi and other questions - Director Michael - 01-23-2013

All the information posted publicly on the asknoah.org web site is freely available to be shared with others. To comply with AskNoah's copyright on this material, when you post information from asknoah.org onto other web sites or Facebook pages, you should include the URL address of the specific web page on asknoah.org that you're quoting from.


Rabbinical Jurisdiction - amenyahu - 01-13-2014

Hi there,

A few years ago, I asked a question about needing a rabbi, or accepting upon oneself a rabbi. Within the answer given was the notions of accepting a rabbi's "rulings". The definition of a ruling is an authoritative decision, like one made by a judge.

In the Seven Commandments, it's clear that Gentiles must judge ourselves based on the Seven Commandments (in Rambam's depiction of the Law of Dinim). My understanding is that Ramban's commentary on Genesis ch. 34 concludes that Yaaqov and his sons had no authority to judge Shekhem. By logical extension (my words follow) Israel doesn't administer judgments and punishments upon the nations.

But based on what I was told here before, rabbis can make "rulings" on Gentiles. If rabbis have no jurisdiction over Gentiles, what authority do these "rulings" have? I can understand that the Jews have the Torah, the revelation of G-d and thus they may have a certain level of expertise on what the Torah says about the details of the Seven Commandments. So they have the ability to convey Torah teachings about the Seven Commandments. So that means that I can see that the expertise to teach. But I don't see where rabbis or any Jews have any authority over Gentiles. I can see that judges of Israel had legal authority over Israelites and Jews. I don't see where that spreads across to Gentiles. I can see in the Seven Commandments and in the tradition that Gentiles are supposed judge Gentiles and give rulings (authoritative judgments) regarding our seven commandments and that it is imperative that we learn and study the seven commandments. So even in there, I see the Jewish ability to TEACH the Seven Commandments. But to give rulings? To make authoritative judgments and decision? Even if rabbis have the expertise (to a certain level) which qualifies them to have a educated decision, what makes them authoritative decisions? You see the difference, right? The difference between an educated opinion and an authoritative opinion?

So what overt and clear Torah source states that the rabbis or the Jews have legal authority over Gentiles, a bit like how Deuteronomy 17 gives the judges/rabbis authority over Jews, people in Israel? Because my understanding is that rabbis like Ramban say that rabbis have no such jurisdiction over Gentiles. If there is not such a jurisdiction, then is the only authority a rabbi has over a Gentile that which the Gentile gives to the rabbi?