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Circumcision and procreation for Noahides
#11
Sh'lom!
I have a few questions regarding circumcision:
(i) How do I know if I am descended from a son of Abraham and Keturah? Am I correct in saying that this includes only Arabic men?
(ii) Would I have to circumcise myself or would I only be obligated to circumcise my male children on the eighth day from birth? What if my son is older than 8 days?
(iii) And finally, what is the meaning of “anyone who wishes to have himself or his son circumcised in observance of this commandment may do so, and he is included with the nations that are in the covenant with Abraham” (p.68, footnote 65)?
Thank you very much.
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#12
(08-05-2012, 12:20 AM)nick Wrote: (i) How do I know if I am descended from a son of Abraham and Keturah? Am I correct in saying that this includes only to Arabic men?

Arabic men are included in the Abrahamic obligation for circumcision, because the many of them are descended from Abraham and Keturah.

If a male Gentile is not Arabic, there is only a very small chance that he is descended patrilinearly from a son of Abraham and Keturah, and therefore he is not obligated to be circumcised (unless he has definite knowledge that it's highly probable that he is descended patrilinearly from Abraham and Keturah).

(08-05-2012, 12:20 AM)nick Wrote: (ii) Would I have to circumcise myself or would I only be obligated to circumcise my male children on the eighth day from birth? What if my son is older than 8 days?

a) The Abrahamic obligation for circumcision is for males of any age from 8 days and older. This obligation is that the person should be circumcised, so of course the operation can be done by a trained professional.

(b) If a Gentile baby boy is circumcised before he is 8 days old, the Abrahamic obligation (if it applies to this baby) is fulfilled.

© If a child is old enough that he might might rebel if he is forced against his will to be circumcised, a parent who wants this for the son should not do so if the child won't come to agree through pleasant and logical persuasion. After a non-Arabic boy has turned 13, it is no longer the parent's gift to G-d if the boy is circumcised. It would be a gift that the young man makes on his own

(08-05-2012, 12:20 AM)nick Wrote: (iii) And finally, what is the meaning of “anyone who wishes to have himself or his son circumcised in observance of this commandment may do so, and he is included with the nations that are in the covenant with Abraham” [from "The Divine Code"] (p.68, footnote 65)?

Abraham accepted upon himself a covenant to follow the One True G-d, as it says about this (Genesis 17:1): I am G-d Al-mighty; walk before me and be "perfect". The Hebrew word translated here as "perfect" means that he was to be wholehearted and complete in his service to the One True G-d, and also complete physically in G-d's eyes, through the removal of the extraneous foreskin. Before that covenant was sealed, Abraham had actually accepted upon himself many years earlier that at whatever time in the future G-d would command him to be physically completed through circumcision, he would readily and lovingly do so. When G-d did finally give Abraham that command, G-d included Abraham's future descendants, and the servants of Abraham who voluntarily followed his teachings of morality and monotheism.

Because this spiritual obligation for circumcision still continues for the many Gentiles (Arabic men), and because it can be done in any event just for the sake of its physical benefits, therefore any male Gentile who wishes to complete himself and/or his young male children as a gift to the One True G-d may do so, and G-d will reward him for following through with this Divine service.
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#13
(08-09-2013, 02:24 AM)Jochanan Wrote: I don't agree with this Term ARABIC MEN, because Christian Arabic do not circumcise their male children.
Just because they don't follow that practice doesn't mean that they don't have an obligation to do so. They should be educated to understand that the obligation is incumbent upon them based on their ethnicity.

(08-09-2013, 02:24 AM)Jochanan Wrote: And as I said, not all Arabs today have the same paternal line, also many other Oriental Muslim Men share the same Y-DNA as Jewish Man in Israel. So the Term...Oriental non-Jewish Men must be circumcised and their sons is better than only ARABIC.
The statement that was quoted from "The Divine Code" only says that Arabic males have an obligation to be circumcised. It doesn't exclude the possibility that there could be other ethnic groups that are also obligated. But it is important to understand that the criteria for this obligation is not based on genetic testing of individuals. It is based on the historical background of the majority of the population of the ethnic group.

(08-09-2013, 02:24 AM)Jochanan Wrote: Also Noahides are not all the same in the world.
I see it in Germany, these Noahides never have to do with Jewish Rabbis.
That also doesn't change the fact that the precepts a person is obligated to follow are based on Torah Law. We are not to rely on anyone else to provide explanations of any part of Torah, whether for Jews or Gentiles, aside from accepted Jewish Torah scholars, for they alone, as students of the earlier Torah Sages, are the authorities who explain the particular Oral Torah precepts that apply for any individual.
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