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09-23-2009, 06:37 PM
(This post was last modified: 10-28-2015, 03:50 PM by Director Michael.)
Is suicide ever permitted? For example, if somebody wants you to become an idolator, and he will make you do sacrifices for the idol and have you as a prisoner, everyday forced to do idol sacrifices, is it permitted for you to commit suicide instead of live a live as an idolator? Or shall we rather start pray to idols than die? I would not like to live if anybody did this to me. Do not missinterpret this, I'm not forced to be an idolator and i'm not going to kill myself. I'm just very curious, if I G-D forbid will come into this situation, what would I do then?
I think that sometimes it would be the only the right thing to do to commit suicide. For example, if a pious rabbi has to choose between suicide or become an idolator, what should he do? If he saved many people by killing himself, why would he not recieve the life in the World to Come? I know G-D only does what is righteous and just, I do not put that in question, but what does the rabbis say about this? What is Talmud and Torah telling us to do if we G-D forbid have this awful choice between suicide and murder or idol worship? If we are forced to idol worship, are we liable to punishment or are we not?
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09-23-2009, 07:25 PM
(This post was last modified: 09-23-2009, 07:27 PM by Director Michael.)
In these issues, there are differences in the Torah's precepts for Gentiles and Jews. A Jew is required to submit even to painful death G-d forbid (instead of suicide), rather than accept being forced to even appear to be worshipping an idol. That is an aspect of a Jew's commandment to sanctify the Name of G-d. This is not required of a Gentile, who should therefore save his life by pretending to worship the idol. That is proven in the Tanach by the story of Elisha and Naaman. Naaman became a righteous Gentile, and he was given permission by Elisha to pretend to serve an idol in order to save his life (II Kings, Chapter 5).
On the other hand, if either a Noahide or a Jew is being forced to commit a murder G-d forbid, he should refuse and instead submit to being killed G-d forbid.
A person is permitted (but not required) to let himself be killed G-d forbid, or to take "impossible" risks, in order to save the lives of others. That is considered an act of bravery and heroism.
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Director Michael Wrote:In these issues, there are differences in the Torah's precepts for Gentiles and Jews. A Jew is required to submit even to painful death G-d forbid (instead of suicide), rather than accept being forced to even appear to be worshipping an idol. That is an aspect of a Jew's commandment to sanctify the Name of G-d. This is not required of a Gentile, who should therefore save his life by pretending to worship the idol. That is proven in the Tanach by the story of Elisha and Naaman. Naaman became a righteous Gentile, and he was given permission by Elisha to pretend to serve an idol in order to save his life (II Kings, Chapter 5).
On the other hand, if either a Noahide or a Jew is being forced to commit a murder G-d forbid, he should refuse and instead submit to being killed G-d forbid.
How much effort may one put into resisting the coersion? Would a Noahide in such a terrible situation be permitted even to kill the one(s) trying to force him to murder an innocent?
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It depends on the type of force the coercer is using. A Noahide is allowed to act in self-defense. If the only possible way for a person to save himself from being killed is to kill his attacker in self-defense, that is permitted.
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B"H
The Divine Code says (p 417, topic 21):
"It is clear that if the person has become mentally ill and is endangering his own life, he is not considered as one who is liable for committing suicide, and it is an obligation to save his life, like that of any other sick person.)"
I will argue that a person who thinks about committing suicide has mental problems to begin with. How can anyone be liable for suicide given the aforesaid ruling?
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12-23-2015, 04:02 PM
(This post was last modified: 12-06-2019, 08:43 AM by Director Michael.)
Some people weigh that option as a rational, logical choice based on pros and cons. However, G-d's command takes it out of the realm of being an option to be considered. This is discussed more fully on this page of our web site:
https://asknoah.org/faq/morality
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12-23-2015, 05:49 PM
(This post was last modified: 12-24-2015, 10:20 PM by Director Michael.)
According to what has been transcribed from the book "Divine Code" by Hrvatski Noahid.
I understand that depending on the level of mental illness (depression for example) that a person has, G-d forbid, it is automatically exempt from Divine punishment for any misconduct? Since it lost some level of reason and logic of things? which may G-d forbid.
Is, then, suicide, G-d forbid, the total peak of mental illness, because the person went so far as to lose the fear of G-d? say, for example, that the person has become alienated.
I am assuming that the person is a Noahide, and in his days of lucidity, recognized G-d and accepted the 7 Laws of Noah.
Thank you Dr. Schulman for your attention.
All the best!
Alex
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(12-23-2015, 05:49 PM)alexdantas Wrote: According to what has been transcribed from the book "Divine Code" by Hrvatski Noahid.
I understand that depending on the level of mental illness (depression for example) that a person has, G-d forbid, it is automatically exempt from Divine punishment for any misconduct? Since it lost some level of reason and logic of things? which may G-d forbid.
There are many levels in what modern society calls "mental illness," or losing "some level" of reason and logic. So the possibility of exemption from punishment for violating one of the Noahide Commandments on that account is not automatic. The Torah-Law definition of the level of mental illness that would exempt a person is considerably stricter than the level that can exempt people from conviction in many of the modern secular court systems (for example, in the U.S.).
(12-23-2015, 05:49 PM)alexdantas Wrote: Is, then, suicide, G-d forbid, the total peak of mental illness, because the person went so far as to lose the fear of G-d? say, for example, that the person has become alienated.
The answer in the great majority of cases is no, which is why committing suicide (G-d forbid) is, in fact, forbidden by Torah Law for all people, within the category of murder. in an exceptional case in which the person was so mentally unbalanced, or so mentally tortured, as to exempt him from responsibility for his act, the person's soul will not be punished for it.
(12-23-2015, 05:49 PM)alexdantas Wrote: I am assuming that the person is a Noahide, and in his days of lucidity, recognized G-d and accepted the 7 Laws of Noah.
Thank you Dr. Schulman for your attention.
All the best!
Alex
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