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07-23-2007, 11:58 AM
(This post was last modified: 12-18-2008, 02:57 PM by Director Michael.)
"The Path of the Righteous Gentile," chapter 5 on idolatry, part 2 #17 states: "It is forbidden to make figures or images for ornamental purposes, even though they are not idols; that is, one should not make images of gold or silver that are merely for artistic purposes because he might cause others to mistake them for idols. *This prohibition pertains to forms with human characteristics in three-dimensional relief.* Though forbidden, such actions do not warrant capital punishment."
Here should I not escape from the literal meaning of the expression "images of gold or silver," or does this pertain to other forms such as plastic, metal, dolls, etc.?
Also in "The Path of the Righteous Gentile," chapter 5 on idolatry, part 2 #23 states: "It is not forbidden to keep or physically hold the image of a man unless it is distinctly the image of one worshiped as a god. Any other human image [i.e. image of a human] may be kept or held, so long as the image is slightly distorted or damaged, such as by chipping the nose, to dispel any suspicion of its being an idolatrous form. This act of damaging is called nullifying the idol."
Here the medium of form such as gold, silver, plastic, metal, stuffed, etc., is not specifically defined. Does that mean that all these forms and others are prohibited unless nullified?
Really simply stated, my question is, what constitutes a physical idol?
What about images of animals and plants or other created things that are not human?
Thanks,
Randy
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07-24-2007, 01:44 AM
(This post was last modified: 08-26-2007, 10:54 PM by rabbiyitz.)
[Upated 26 Aug. '07 - The team of participating Rabbis of the United Noahide Academies have researched this question in greater depth, and found that for Gentiles, a protruding image of the face of a person is not forbidden, unless it is specifically something that is being worshipped as an idol. A full 3D anatomically correct sculpture of a person - front, sides and back - is forbidden, unless it is nullified as described further down.]
Shalom,
The [3D] form of a human or of the celestial bodies, made of any material be it gold, silver, wood, plaster, stone, etc., are classed as idolatrous images. The three-dimensional image must be one that is full on all sides, but one that is engraved, painted or woven is not defined as an idol. Other three-dimensional forms such as animals, plants, dragons, etc. are all permissible to own, unless the object itself is worshipped as an idol.
Rabbi Yitz
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07-25-2007, 10:20 AM
(This post was last modified: 12-18-2008, 02:58 PM by Director Michael.)
rabbiyitz Wrote:... "but one that is engraved, painted or woven is not defined as an idol." ...
Rabbi Yitz
Then appliqué would be permitted because it is not truly three-dimensional?
Thanks,
Randy
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07-26-2007, 01:20 AM
(This post was last modified: 09-19-2007, 05:14 AM by Director Michael.)
rabbiyitz Wrote:Shalom,
The [3D] form of a human or of the celestial bodies, made of any material be it gold, silver, wood, plaster, stone, etc., are classed as idolatrous images. The three-dimensional image must be one that is full on all sides, but one that is engraved, painted or woven is not defined as an idol. Other three-dimensional forms such as animals, plants, dragons, etc. are all permissible to own, unless the object itself is worshipped as an idol.
Rabbi Yitz
OK, so my Star Wars action figures are idols??
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08-16-2007, 11:10 PM
(This post was last modified: 09-19-2007, 05:17 AM by Director Michael.)
zoidberg Wrote:rabbiyitz Wrote:Shalom,
The [3D] form of a human or of the celestial bodies, made of any material be it gold, silver, wood, plaster, stone, etc., are classed as idolatrous images. The three-dimensional image must be one that is full on all sides, but one that is engraved, painted or woven is not defined as an idol. Other three-dimensional forms such as animals, plants, dragons, etc. are all permissible to own, unless the object itself is worshipped as an idol.
Rabbi Yitz
OK, so my Star Wars action figures are idols??
The question at hand is about forbidden 3D forms, not actual idols or idolatrous images.
If the toy figure has anatomically correct 3D human form, the size is irrelevant. Figures which are a modified or non-human form are permitted.
Clarification [Aug. 26, '07]: An "anatomically correct" human form means a full 3D form, from front, sides and back. A face in profile, or from the front (similar to a mask), is not in the category of a forbidden form for Gentiles.
A forbidden 3D human form can be made permissible if it is "nullified" by a Gentile, by damaging a feature - for example breaking off an ear.
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I work for a company that makes pictures that go on tombstones. They are called 'memorial portraits.' Our company makes pictures of religious symbols, icons from various religions (mostly catholic), to go on these tombstones as well.
Some months back, I told them I would no longer be directly involved in making any icon image, because I felt it was making idols. They are not 3D, but pictures on ceramics that are flat or sometimes domed slightly. I am not sure it is forbidden for me to make these or not. I will probably still avoid it, but can someone tell me if its forbidden?
Also, I may start designing web pages for monument companies. This will mean they will probably want images on their website of statues, icons, or any other thing that they make. I probably wouldn't have to make the images, but they would send them to me and I would have to post them on the site. They may want me to color correct them in photoshop. I really don't want to do this, but may need to for my job. If it is forbidden, I will refuse and find something else. Can a Rabbi answer my question about this too?
Thanks very much.
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09-05-2007, 09:05 AM
(This post was last modified: 09-05-2007, 09:09 AM by Rabbi Immanuel Schochet.)
newlybennoach Wrote:... pictures on ceramics that are flat or sometimes domed slightly. I am not sure it is forbidden for me to make these or not. I will probably still avoid it, but can someone tell me if its forbidden?
What do you mean by "icons"? If these are 2-D painted images of the deceased, or of historical "saints" of their religions who are honored but not worshipped (i.e., non-deified humans vs. explicit idols that are worshipped), then I see no problem. If they are 2-D icons of things that are worshipped as deities, then it is forbidden.
newlybennoach Wrote:Also, I may start designing web pages for monument companies. This will mean they will probably want images on their website of statues, icons, or any other thing that they make. I probably wouldn't have to make the images, but they would send them to me and I would have to post them on the site. They may want me to color correct them in photoshop...."
The answer is basically same as above, although simple color-correction and saving of an electronic image file of an idolatrous image might be legalistically less severe than working with an actual physical image, depending on exactly what is involved (e.g. improving an existing image design vs. creating one from scratch; coloring of garments vs. fixing up faces, etc.). Even though you are "only" working with electronic files, someone might print out a hard copy of an idolatrous image from the web page and use it for their own worship (which you would not be held responsible for).
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09-16-2007, 03:13 AM
(This post was last modified: 09-16-2007, 12:29 PM by Director Michael.)
We have been having a similar question in regard to this portion of the "Path of the Righteous Gentile". In Part 5 regarding Idolatry it is written:
12. If one brings idols into a house, for as long as they are there the house is forbidden for use, as it is considered an accessory to idol worship. Once the idols are removed in a way that indicates a nullification of the house's use as an accessory to them, the house becomes permissible. If the idols were brought there by an idolatrous Noahide, and an Israelite removes them from the house, this does not represent a nullification, because it may be construed that the Noahide wishes the idols to remain, but the Israelite did not. Therefore, just as a Noahide brought the idols into the house, a Noahide must take the idols out of the house in order for it to be considered a nullification of the house's status as an accessory to idol worship.[66]
We recently moved to an area close to my family and are enjoying being near family for the first time in our marriage (the children love being with Nana& PopPop); however, my mom collects statues of things (non-religious) and also has an angel collection in her room. All of these are used as decorations and not for worship- most of them represent a memory or a gift. The sections quoted above trouble us because it seems to indicate that we would not be able to go to my parent's house (or anywhere there is a statue- which seems like everywhere in our society in the US).
What are we to do in this situation?
Thank you for your time,
Pat and Kristine
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Statues that are used as decorations and not for idolatrous worship might be in the category of forbidden images, but they are not actual idols. Therefore they don't make the house an accessory to idol worship, and there is no problem going into the house and making use of it in a normal way.
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Director Michael Wrote:Statues that are used as decorations and not for idolatrous worship might be in the category of forbidden images, but they are not actual idols. Therefore they don't make the house an accessory to idol worship, and there is no problem going into the house and making use of it in a normal way.
Thank you for your clarification and speedy response. It is good to understand the difference between actual "idols" and "forbidden images."
Does this same thing apply to doll babies, barbies, GI Joes, etc. that are made to look "life-like." Should these items be "nullified" in the ways mentioned earlier or are they forbidden images that need to be removed from the children's play areas?
You have been very helpful; again, thank you for your time,
Pat and Kristine
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