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Visitor R.M. to the web site Wrote:What do you do about people who don't keep the laws? There are a few ways that this problem can be addressed in the present time:
1. Torah-faithful individuals and organizations, both Jewish and Noahide, have an obligation to do outreach to Gentiles to educate them about the Seven Noahide Commandments. Through education, and sincere and open communications, more people are going to learn about what these commandments are, and more people will start to observe them. People should be told why (spiritually, morally and intellectually) these commandments should be observed, and what the rewards are (both spiritually and in practical, physical ways) for individuals and societies who keep them.
2. Modern nations have secular civil and criminal codes of law, and a system of courts and law enforcement. These secular laws always include at least a few of the Noahide laws, at least to some extent. For example, it is common to have laws against murder, injury, theft, extortion, rape, incest, cruelty to animals, bribery and perjury. So more and more citizens of each country should invest efforts to ensure that those existing laws which relate to the Noahide Commandments are strenghtened and enforced within the secular court systems.
3. When the Messianic redemption occurs, all the nations will start to keep the Seven Noahide Commandments. To help accomplish this sooner, each person should increase in deeds of goodness and kindness, while observing these commandments, repenting for past transgressions, and expending more effort to learn about the details of these precepts and teach them to others. At this critical time, every second counts!
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Well, lets assume that no matter how much education...there will be some who still reject the noahide laws.
What happens then?
What do we do with those people?
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People have freedom of choice. If a person chooses to violate the Law of the Land, by murdering, raping, robbing, etc., that person runs the risk of being arrested, put on trial, and receiving some sort of punishment within that country's secular legal system.
Of course those types of activities are destructive to the society. The people of the society have an obligation to at least make sure that society-destroying activities are made illegal, and that those laws are effectively enforced. Otherwise, the society will disintegrate, G-d forbid, as many societies have in the past, throughout history. To avoid societal disintegration, people need to properly educate and train the children so they won't engage in society-destroying activities. It is easy to figure out logically if an activity is destructive to society, even if it's not considered illegal within the secular law due to liberal attitudes.
The Noahide faith itself is the most appealing faith for Gentiles, because it is the True faith, and G-d created the human intellect with the character that it is naturally attracted to the truth. Those people who are educated about the Torah's Noahide Commandments, but they nevertheless reject them, are passing up the opportunity G-d is giving them to be Pious Gentiles, and all the Divine attention and reward that goes along with that. So ultimately, until a person harms someone else and/or violates some law of the land, his rejection of G-d's commandments is between him and G-d. But we have to do our part to educate and encourage everyone about this truth and this opportunity, so everyone will have the option to choose the right path.
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(04-10-2011, 02:43 PM)Director Michael Wrote: So ultimately, until a person harms someone else and/or violates some law of the land, his rejection of G-d's commandments is between him and G-d.
I'm a little confused then Sir.
I read the following in the Mishneh Torah:
.....a treaty cannot be made with a city which desires to accept a peaceful settlement until they deny idol worship, destroy their places of worship, and accept the seven universal laws commanded Noah's descendants. For every gentile who does not accept these commandments must be executed if he is under our undisputed authority.
- Law of Kings, Chapter 8 rule 9
....Moses was commanded by the Almighty to compel all the inhabitants of the world to accept the commandments given to Noah's descendants.
If one does not accept these commands, he should be executed.
- Law of Kings, Chapter 8 rule 10
I was wondering how you reconcile this to the answer you gave me?
It's probably just a mistake on my part, but..if you could just clear that up it would be great.
Thanks again for your time Sir.
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04-21-2011, 02:29 PM
(This post was last modified: 04-21-2011, 02:31 PM by Director Michael.)
I hope this will clear up your confusion. The answer I gave was
(04-10-2011, 02:43 PM)Director Michael Wrote: So ultimately, until a person harms someone else and/or *violates some law of the land*, his rejection of G-d's commandments is between him and G-d.
When Rambam specified those particular punishments in the Mishneh Torah, he was referring to the *law of the land* that would be in place under a Torah-based monarchy, as was the monarchy of King David that ruled over a Jewish kingdom in the Land of Israel. In that situation, the law would be that if a Gentile refused to promise that he would not murder, steal, commit incest or adultery, cut meat off from a living mammal and eat the meat before the mammal dies, bribe judges or give false testimony, worship idols, or blaspheme the unique holy Hebrew Name of G-d - with all of those prohibited for Gentiles as capital crimes according to the *law of the land* - then that person would be considered such a threat to the society that the established (Torah-based) *law of the land* would specify that action.
But since many years before the destruction of the Second Holy Temple in 70 C.E., there have been no such Torah-based governments, with the possible exception of the Kazar kingdom in Asia that collapsed in 970 C.E. Therefore, a Gentile's rejection of G-d's Noahide Commandments is between him and G-d, except to the extent that violation of any of those prohibitions is illegal within the law of the land (as we see that there are laws in the U.S. that specify punishment for some of those crimes).
Note that none of these punishments will be an issue in the Messianic Era which will begin very soon, because in that time, all Gentiles will be willing and happy righteous observers of the Noahide Code, since G-d will remove the influence of the Evil Inclination from the world.
In the meantime, in a spirit of good will and sincere concern, we should try to communicate to Gentiles the many "compelling" reasons for why they should accept and observe G-d's Noahide Commandments.
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04-21-2011, 08:57 PM
(This post was last modified: 04-28-2011, 11:38 PM by Director Michael.)
Do you think that there is the possibility that we will have a 'Torah based Monarchy' that will rule the nations, possibly with the assistance of the U.N.?
I have noticed on some Noahide sites that the U.N are now promoting the Noahide Laws to their member states (similar to how the laws are recognised in U.S. public law)...so is it possible that there can be an emergence of what we might term a new order of the nations, governed by a ruling Noahide system, backed by the U.N.? A kind of a Noahide world government?
I noticed on the site of the Jerusalem Centre for Jewish studies, the principal notes in one of his pages:
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"© There is an absence of an absolute code of justice. Instead, this is replaced by a relative righteousness which is often corrupted by tyrants and false environmental trends. There is often no real freedom or equality, which is witnessed by unjust discrimination against minorities, races, classes and groups.
"The Universal Noachaide Code As stated in the Bible (Genesis 9:1-7) and Talmud, the Universal Noahide code is a guide to general ethics and also international relations which would remedy these inadequacies:
The recognition of a Universal, Supra-national code would replace national sovereignty.
The fulfillment of the Code would be undressed to be a collective responsibility.
The Universal Code would operate between individuals as well as between states. Therefore it would apply equally to internal affairs, and under its rule, stateless and foreign individuals would be protected.
Such a world government could take the form of a World Federation, a loose bi-polar system, or a wider balance of national groups."
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Are you in line with this concept Sir?
(04-10-2011, 02:43 PM)Director Michael Wrote: Note that none of these punishments will be an issue in the Messianic Era which will begin very soon, because in that time, all Gentiles will be willing and happy righteous observers of the Noahide Code, since G-d will remove the influence of the Evil Inclination from the world.
Could the Messianic Era be the time when the U.N. is fully on board with spreading the Noahide Laws to their member states?
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(04-21-2011, 08:57 PM)davidPeterson Wrote: Do you think that there is the possibility that we will have a *Torah*-based Monarchy that will rule the nations, possibly with the assistance of the U.N.?
Not before Moshiach comes (see Gen. 49:10 and Isaiah 11:10). Until that time, any efforts toward centralized world governance are surely based on Communism or Fascism which are antithetical to the Torah-based faith, and which are two sides of the same coin that are well represented at the U.N. .
(04-21-2011, 08:57 PM)davidPeterson Wrote: I have noticed on some Noahide sites that the U.N are now promoting the Noahide Laws to their member states (similar to how the laws are recognised in U.S. public law)... so is it possible that there can be an emergence of what we might term a new order of the nations, governed by a ruling Noahide system, backed by the U.N.? A kind of a Noahide world government?
What I mentioned above applies. Rambam addressed this issue in Laws of Kings 8:11 -
"Any Gentile who accepts the seven [DIVINE] *commandments* and is careful to observe them is of the "pious of the nations of the world" and will have a portion in the World to Come. This is so provided that one accepts them and observes them because the Holy One, blessed be He, commanded them in the Torah and informed us through Moses our teacher that the descendants of Noah were originally commanded about them. But if one observes them only by virtue of common sense, he is not a Ger Toshav (a Gentile 'Resident,' the Written Torah's term for one who takes on the Noahide Code), nor one of the 'pious of the nations of the world,' but rather, one of their wise people."
Of course governments should be encouraged, from the top down and from the bottom up, to adopt for themselves laws that are consistent with, and which uphold practical observance of, a wider range of the precepts of the Noahide Code, because those precepts are indispensable for the short- and long-term well being of any society.
(04-21-2011, 08:57 PM)davidPeterson Wrote: I noticed on the site of the Jerusalem Centre for Jewish studies, the principal notes in one of his pages:
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"© There is an absence of an absolute code of justice. Instead, this is replaced by a relative righteousness which is often corrupted by tyrants and false environmental trends. There is often no real freedom or equality, which is witnessed by unjust discrimination against minorities, races, classes and groups.
It is worthy to note that capitalism is the only economic system know to man that can provide *both* economic growth and personal freedom. But since evil is prevalent in the world until Moshiach comes, every country needs to adopt a legislated social contract in which valid human rights are guaranteed with the force of law - WITH CHECKS AND BALANCES, because power corrupts, and corrupt people seek power.
(04-21-2011, 08:57 PM)davidPeterson Wrote: "The Universal Noachaide Code As stated in the Bible (Genesis 9:1-7) and Talmud, the Universal Noahide code is a guide to general ethics and also international relations which would remedy these inadequacies:
The recognition of a Universal, Supra-national code would replace national sovereignty.
The fulfillment of the Code would be undressed to be a collective responsibility.
The Universal Code would operate between individuals as well as between states. Therefore it would apply equally to internal affairs, and under its rule, stateless and foreign individuals would be protected.
Such a world government could take the form of a World Federation, a loose bi-polar system, or a wider balance of national groups."
--------------------------------
Are you in line with this concept Sir?
There is no Torah basis for this proposal, nor is there any basis in Torah to imagine that it could succeed on a practical basis. Also, to establish an *authentic* Noahide Code law, i.e. Torah-based, this hypothetical world government would have to defer to the consensus of Torah-law rulings by reliable observant Orthodox Rabbis. The present conditions of rampant antisemitism and rampant anti-Israel politics, as well as rampant internal Israeli politics, preclude this from the realm of possibility.
In the meantime, every individual Gentile who can be reached with this message has the freedom to choose to accept the Torah's Noahide Code and the reward of the World to Come. In societies with religious freedom, they can form Noahide community groups and congregations with like-minded individuals and families who can make their faithful actions and voices heard in their own societies.
Quote: (04-10-2011, 02:43 PM)Director Michael Wrote: Note that none of these punishments will be an issue in the Messianic Era which will begin very soon, because in that time, all Gentiles will be willing and happy righteous observers of the Noahide Code, since G-d will remove the influence of the Evil Inclination from the world.
Could the Messianic Era be the time when the U.N. is fully on board with spreading the Noahide Laws to their member states?
Rather, that will happen in the Messianic Era. But the first events in the Messianic Era will be Moshiach's establishing the Third Holy Temple on its site in Jerusalem, and the in-gathering of all the Jews in the world to the Land of Israel. So those are the signs for the time when we can expect the U.N. to get fully on board with G-d's Noahide Commandments, which are based in the Torah of Moses.
A fundamental principle of the Noahide Code is the Torah concept of a "Ger Toshav" Gentile, which has no concept outside of the context of a Torah-based and Torah-observant Jewish government ruling with full authority over the entire biblical area of the Holy Land that G-d gave to the Jewish people. Let the U.N. adopt that one modest proposal, and then there might be some basis to think that a next step in the direction of the authentic Noahide Code could be achieved.
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