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Non-marital sex vs. living together
#11
(12-30-2009, 02:12 AM)Director Michael Wrote: The advice is for a young person not to get involved at all with intimate relations until both of the partners are ready and willing to actually get married (see post #4 above). One of the most helpful things that parents can do to help their children through this particular challenge of adolescence (starting at the latest from the age of puberty) is to send their sons to an all-boys school, and their daughters to an all-girls school. Schools should not offer mixed-gender social events (dances, proms, etc.), because that is just like throwing gasoline on a fire. Parents also need to set boundaries for their children's social lives. A wise policy is not to go on unchaperoned dates until the young man and young woman have gotten well acquainted without intimacy, and they are seriously considering if they want (and are ready and able) to get married.
I agree with all you say because i see the disasters waiting to happen all the time .They are free to be liberal but not free to be decent with moral boundries and seemliness .Shyness which is a sign of the presence of nobility is not honoured in the media at all;in fact all are scorned .The pressures on young people are terrible ...
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#12
Pre-marital sex is the origin of so many problems. It destroys the natural way of life and the value of marriage. Marriage is a long term commitment and has been shown to have numerous benefits. It leads to loved and disciplined children, economic stability, family care, sense of satisfaction and belonging, lesser crimes and healthier lifestyles. It is an amazing institution. In a country like India, where people prefer arranged marriages and denounce divorces; I can proudly say that marriages are fulfilling all those mentioned benefits and more. I am sad that so many people and children in the West miss the benefits and peace of a long and stable marriage. We can all learn something from India, Middle East , and most importantly from the Torah and relevant guides.
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#13
(08-22-2012, 08:25 AM)thatguy Wrote: Now, I see the words preferable and should. Is it specifically a sin to engage in pre-marital sex? Would G-d punish such an act?

Since I consider myself a righteous gentile I would like to know your view on Noahide laws on premarital physical relationships. I grew up in a Christian (baptist) home and they always taught us that any kind of relationship with girls before marriage is wrong. We aren't encourage to talk to any girls unless we are sure that we want to marry each other. Now what is the truth on this according to the Torah? I have heard completely opposing view from different Jews that I have asked. I actually think of myself as a pretty deep thinker, so I see why its good to keep these laws since the world is seen as a oneness. I am 22 years old and I have a lot of resentment over the fact that I was never encouraged by family or friends to pursue a physical relationship with a girl and I have tons of resentment and regret over anyone who seems to have all this fun with girls especially in our day's society. Thank You.
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#14
(04-01-2014, 05:31 AM)joenoahi Wrote: Since I consider myself a righteous gentile I would like to know your view on Noahide laws on premarital physical relationships.

The relevant Torah laws on this subject are presented in "The Divine Code", 2nd Edition, Part VI (The Prohibition of Forbidden Relations) by Rabbi Moshe Weiner of Jerusalem:
https://asknoah.org/books/the-divine-code

In the context of the Noahide Commandments themselves, there are Seven. One of these encompasses "Forbidden Relations" - all six categories of partners who are forbidden to have sexual intercourse together. It is impossible for forbidden partners to contract marriage together within Noahide Law, so the categories of forbidden relations are always "extramarital". Another act which is known to be severely forbidden and sinful, but not subject to punishment by a court of law, is emission of semen "in vain."

Beyond that, mankind was blessed to receive standards for MORAL behavior that is pleasing in G-d's eyes, refraining from actions that are not considered punishable in a court of law, but nevertheless they are abhorrent to G-d and a departure from the ways of upright, pious living. All of this is discussed in the book "The Divine Code".

(04-01-2014, 05:31 AM)joenoahi Wrote: I grew up in a Christian (baptist) home and they always taught us that any kind of relationship with girls before marriage is wrong. We aren't encourage to talk to any girls unless we are sure that we want to marry each other. Now what is the truth on this according to the Torah? I have heard completely opposing view from different Jews that I have asked.

In matters of Torah Law for Noahides, you should only rely on answers from learned and observant Jews who are expert in that area of Torah. (Of course, the answers they provide may be quoted by others.)
One point you need to understand is the definition of "Noahide Marriage". Within Torah Law, Gentiles are not required to conduct any special ceremony in order to enter into a marriage relationship, which is defined as domestic partnership, sharing the same home together and living in the manner of a husband and wife as a matter of public knowledge. Also, being a "married Gentile couple" is defined as any case in which Torah Law specifies that woman would be liable for the capital sin of adultery if she has sexual intercourse with another man other than her domestic partner.
However, since marriage is also a societal institution, a Gentile society has some rights to enact laws that place more restrictive (but not less restrictive) rules on what will or will not be recognized as a valid marriage for partners who are otherwise not forbidden to each other within Torah Law.

(04-01-2014, 05:31 AM)joenoahi Wrote: I actually think of myself as a pretty deep thinker, so I see why its good to keep these laws since the world is seen as a oneness. I am 22 years old and I have a lot of resentment over the fact that I was never encouraged by family or friends to pursue a physical relationship with a girl and I have tons of resentment and regret over anyone who seems to have all this fun with girls especially in our day's society. Thank You.

For Gentile men, the promiscuous / licentious pursuit to "have all this fun with girls" without the bond of marriage is deemed to be immoral and disdainful in G-d's eyes, as it leads to the sin of emission of semen in vain, as well as the societal evil of prostitution, which includes girls who prostitute themselves only for the sake of the pleasure they receive from non-marital sex. In Genesis, man is told to leave his father and his mother, and to "cling to" (meaning to have sexual relations with) HIS WIFE (meaning, with a bond of publicly known domestic partnership).
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#15
B"H

"The Divine Code", Part 6, topic 4:11:

If [a Gentile man] cohabits with an unmarried [Gentile] woman without [their] intention of marriage, whether or not the matter is known publicly, it does not render her married to him or give her a status of a "me’orasah" [Hebrew term for a betrothed woman], and it is mere licentiousness. Although such relations are not clearly forbidden for Gentiles, it is a repulsive act, even if done in a temporary fashion... From G-d's words, "Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and cling to his wife, and they shall become one flesh," it is the natural and appropriate way for a man to marry a woman and establish a family, One who deviates from this path is mistaken, and acts against G-d’s will in His creation of mankind and their character... [prostitution] is considered abhorrent for Gentiles. It is possible that it is only permitted for Gentiles in a temporary fashion, but not for a woman to practice prostitution on a regular basis... Shem’s decree [of punishment] was only for a woman who cohabited with an idolater but did not apply to cohabitation with another observer of the Noahide Commandments..."

This means that Gentiles have no explicit commandment not to fornicate.

However, Rabbi Weiner writes (Part VI, Chapter 4, footnote 142): "It appears that based on the concept explained in this chapter, the verse commanding Gentiles to "make the world settled" forbids them to do any action that logically causes a destruction of society, so prostitution must therefore be banned."

Does this mean that fornication is forbidden due to the logical obligation to make the world settled?
I.e., does the prohibition of fornication stem from a logical obligation?
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#16
(06-24-2014, 09:42 PM)Hrvatski Noahid Wrote: Although such relations are not clearly forbidden for Gentiles, it is a repulsive act, even if done in a temporary fashion." ... This means that Gentiles have no explicit commandment not to fornicate.

However, Rabbi Weiner writes (Part VI, Chapter 4, footnote 142): "It appears that based on the concept explained in this chapter, the verse commanding Gentiles to "make the world settled" forbids them to do any action that logically causes a destruction of society, so prostitution must therefore be banned."

Does this mean that fornication is forbidden due to the logical obligation to make the world settled?

It is teaching that prostitution is a sinful practice for Gentiles because:
a) there is a Divine obligation to make the world settled, and it is logically known that this practice does have the opposite effect on society;
b) it is an abomination in the eyes of G-d, as we know from the Torah;
c) if the society outlaws the practice as it should, then those who break the law are also contravening the society's laws and courts which they are obligated to obey.

Therefore a person who engages in prostitution is liable to be punished by G-d for this sinful behavior. However, it is not strictly forbidden by one of the 7 Noahide Commandments. So if a person is a Pious Gentile in respect of fulfilling the faith and the letter of the 7 Noahide Commandments in all respects but engages in prostitution, the person could still merit to receive a place in the World to Come, but could also expect to receive some temporary Divine punishment, and probably a lower spiritual level in the World to Come than would otherwise be achieved. That being said, prostitution often involves or leads to other sins which can bring more punishment, even to the extent of transgressing the specific 7 Commandments.

Similar liability applies for simple intermittent fornication by Gentiles, except that it is a lesser sin than prostitution - it has a (lesser) negative effect on society and it is (less of) an abomination in G-d's eyes. That being said, simple intermittent fornication often involves or leads to other sins which can bring more punishment, even to the extent of transgressing one or more of the specific 7 Commandments.

Note: both prostitution and any kind of fornication without marriage are strictly forbidden for Jews within the 613 Jewish Commandments.

Also note that within Torah Law, a Gentile man and a Gentile woman are permitted to live together as domestic partners without formal marriage, and this couple is considered married within Noahide Law, so the woman in this relationship must not have relations with any other men.

(06-24-2014, 09:42 PM)Hrvatski Noahid Wrote: I.e., does the prohibition of fornication stem from a logical obligation?

Fornication is sinful because it contravenes a logical obligation to uphold what G-d desires, and because it is an abomination in G-d's eyes.

Rabbi Moshe Weiner writes that a society is obligated to outlaw prostitution (the greater and more destructive sin).
A society would be justified to outlaw fornication (the lesser sin).

Note that in regard to prostitution or fornication by Gentiles, I am using the terms "sinful" and "punishable" in G-d's eyes, as opposed to "forbidden", because those acts themselves are not forbidden within the letter of the actual 7 Noahide Commandments, yet it can be learned clearly from the Torah that they are displeasing to G-d and immoral in His eyes. Rabbi Weiner does not say in "The Divine Code" that either prostitution or fornication are actually forbidden for Gentiles by any Divine Commandment. He says that societies are logically obligated to make civil laws against prostitution, and that frequent promiscuous fornication crosses the line into being accounted as prostitution.
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#17
I have a friend who is not living under the same roof with a Jewish man who evidently is not observant but they are having relations. She has said that she is not interested in sex. However denying a man this access seems to me to be cruel and at the same time a way to draw a Jewish man away from his religion. Why would a woman get involved with a Jewish man when she says she can take him or leave him? Seems like some sort of unconscious punishment. Sad
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#18
Every person (except the few who are perfectly righteous) is given an evil inclination, along with the ability to control it and chose to do what's right. However, the evil inclination is especially successful in people who don't know or who don't accept the boundaries of what is right and what is wrong in G-d's eyes. I assume that your friend is not Jewish. Then the biggest cruelty she is committing is that she is leading or facilitating the Jewish man to sin against his Father in Heaven, by doing something which the Torah says he is forbidden to do, thus making his soul liable to punishment. It is cruel to cause harm to another person physically, and how much more so spiritually. Maybe you can explain this to her, so she will break off her intimate relationship with him and explain to him that she's doing it for his own good, because as a Jew. he should only be looking for a Jewish woman (wife).
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#19
(11-05-2014, 02:15 PM)Director Michael Wrote: Every person (except the few who are perfectly righteous) is given an evil inclination, along with the ability to control it and chose to do what's right. However, the evil inclination is especially successful in people who don't know or who don't accept the boundaries of what is right and what is wrong in G-d's eyes. I assume that your friend is not Jewish. Then the biggest cruelty she is committing is that she is leading or facilitating the Jewish man to sin against his Father in Heaven, by doing something which the Torah says he is forbidden to do, thus making his soul liable to punishment. It is cruel to cause harm to another person physically, and how much more so spiritually. Maybe you can explain this to her, so she will break off her intimate relationship with him and explain to him that she's doing it for his own good, because as a Jew. he should only be looking for a Jewish woman (wife).

Thank-you Dr. Michael. I believe the same as you. It will take courage to do this as I may lose her for a friend, However I will pray about it first.Rolleyes
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#20
(10-20-2014, 03:16 PM)Director Michael Wrote: As far as the condition of marriage is concerned, and the woman's liability for adultery, it is all the same by any of those means, as long as the couple are permitted to each other within the Noahide Code and they have a domestic-partnership relationship that is recognized as such by the society around them.

What if a sexually active couple are only boyfriend and girlfriend and they live together as domestic partners? Are they considered married within the Noahide Code or only if they are intimate with the intent of marriage and make it known publicly they're married?

Also, what if a man and a woman view themselves as solely just "friends" who sometimes have relations with each other but there is no commitment? if they're domestic partners (roommates in their own opinions), are they considered married according to the Noahide Code?

Toda for reading.
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